Author Topic: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue  (Read 20242 times)

Offline Marid2apterbilt

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To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« on: December 29, 2010, 11:20:41 pm »
Several have expressed interest in wanting to drag a knee. Well Lets get started. This may end up being a Multipart thread. Dragging a knee is pretty simple but for some doing it without crashing is an issue.

first lets start with..

WHY.
Many think it looks cool, Many do it for show, Others do it for personnal knowledge, At times you may do it to save your arse from Crashing.

Slow guys look really cool.
These are the ones hanging WAY off the Bike, Hip rotated, Knee flug as far out as possible. Yep they got a knee down but what good was it besides wasting expensive knee pucks.

For show?
These guys arent trying so hard to get it down but still stick it WAY out there.

The others who use it as a guage or to save there Arse you can spot quickly.
They use it to Guage how far over or how much more lean they have left thru repitition. they only hang it out as far as they think they need to. When It meets the ground they will even pull it in some. At times these guys may also rely on it to keep them somewhat upright when they start to slide.
Example.
Many of you have seen U2B at full lean but I dont have a pic of him so here is onne of me. Full lean, Front tire chattering as I roll on the gas exiting Shade tree Corner.





Well with the WHY out of the way lets get down to business.
The Basics first.
Many bikes are different so If you go Flying into a corner you dont know what your gonna get. Kinda like running up to a cliff. Walk Dont run or you mmight go over. We dont want anyone crashing.

Sport touring Tires are not reccomended here.
A properly tuned suspension Is. If in doubt $25 @ wheelers will get you real close.
My VFR came with a very Crappy OEM setup. I had and still have at times Issues with the Front tire sliding due to Imbalance of the suspension. This is why I stress Walk Dont run. Alot of crashes are caused from Tooo much entry speed. In slow out Fast is where we will start.

A quickie on Body position.
Start with Moving your upper body to the Inside, This is also called "kiss the Mirror"

Once you get used to that start moving your Butt off the seat to the Inside. Using your Thighs !!! Not your arms. Being smooth not to Rock the Bike "Upset the suspension" or applying unwanted input to the Bars.

Toes on the pegs at all times, If you have to shift, Do so then move your foot back to "Toes on pegs"

Well now you have done a few dozen or more laps on a stretcch of favorite road. This will be our test track.

Now roll your knee outward, Some people turn there Heel inward to help get there knee out further.

Smooth will also be the name of the game here.
The 3B's
Body, Brake, Believe. The first 2 come in what ever order you feel most comfy. #3 is a MUST. You must belive in yourself and the Bike. The Bike n Tires can handle alot more than any of us have the Balls for on the street.  They will hold, Just keep teling your self.  Dont belive me ?? The Bike in the picture Below  weighs 577lbs with luggage. Thats 150lbs more than Most 600cc sport bikes. and Yes those are Pilot power tires.


In your most comfortable corner.
Pic your entry speed and roll on the gas enough to keep it constant, Leaning off before you start turnin. Once you lay the bike in start rolling on the gas slightly increasing speed till you exit the corner and stand it up.
Keep repeating this just a tad bit faster each time till you feel your knee slider touch. The first time WILL startle you and You WILL instinctively pull it back up.

Now this becomes your LEAN ANGLE guage, If you succeed without crashing.

In slow out fast is the safe way to ride. The FAST guys go in hot and actually adjust there speed slightly during turnin or let the G's from the corner slow them down.

There are many other factors to consider before attempting this but here are a few.
Make sure your tires are warm, Most crashes occur due to cold tires.
Dropping a few lbs of PSI will help warm them up faster but greatly increase wear
Learn what your bike is telling you thru the tires.
Bumps/ripples in the road, Cold tires, Tires too hot, etc can all be felt thru the Bike.

Read the Ridinng Well sections on forums like ETR, VFRD.com, Wera/13x and feel free to ask any questions. Im no guru but can help to find the answer you seek...

Have fun, please Be safe, It is addicting.

Im sure I didnt cover it all to be a step by step thing, Anyone with knowledge of something I left out please feel free to add to this.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 10:25:21 am by marid2apterbilt »
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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 10:35:10 am »
found the missing picture.

See above post.
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Offline SilverZZR

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2010, 11:19:29 am »
GREAT POST  ;D
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Offline Curtie223

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2010, 09:45:54 pm »
Here's the pic of Jeff that you were talking about.


As far as the lean off the bike, I always say an arse check is plenty. I don't have near as good action shots here's the best example on my end.

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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2010, 10:24:15 pm »
I have one similar to U2B's.

Darryl was hidden down the hill side, When I didnt see him in his chair I was wondering where he was and closed the throttle making the Back end Slide out. Hence the title. Viffers arent supposed to do that. I was only about 30 ft behind U2B and moving at my 100% to try n keep up. Thats the biggest reason I backed out. Didnt want to take Killboy out as he was standing in the crash zone.

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Offline Curtie223

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 02:31:17 pm »
haha^ looks like you were correcting a target fixation, good thing. that could have been bad. lol

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Offline Curtie223

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 02:35:32 pm »
I love to survey riders. What do they want from riding; how would they like it to feel; how would they like it to look? Want is consistently answered with smoother, faster and increased confidence. Feel runs the gamut through smooth, solid, stable and predictable. Look also ranks smooth above all; followed by fast, which translates into hanging off, knee on the floor. That is the dream. Riders of all classes of bikes, once astride a sportcycle and at a racetrack, feel left out and are often crestfallen until that magic moment finally comes; the krchchshh of getting a knee down. If only the photographer had been in that corner?that lap. In the evolution of our species we?ve gone from knuckle dragging to knee dragging.

An alluring picture of what they imagine or wish to look like can hamstring anyone. These are most often gleaned from dramatic magazine or TV shots stored in their library of mental images and riders envision themselves in these poses as an end unto itself in their quest to improve personal riding prowess. Going for the look without some understanding of its utilitarian underpinnings is, in a word, wrong.

In the evolution of the art of cornering the look of it has had four complete phases--so far. The neat, tidy knees to tank, stretched out on the bike style of the 19-teens through the ?60s was handed down, eye to muscle memory, as the path of least resistance; you could even say ?the natural style? of riding. Phase two: Mike Hailwood let his inside knee come off the tank in the 1960?s and practically created a stock market panic in the riding style etiquette market, it was a huge departure from tradition. Paul Smart, Barry Sheene and others followed. Then, Jarno Saarinen actually moved his butt off the seat a bit which was emulated by many. The fourth phase is credited to and was pioneered by our own Kenny Roberts Sr?s knee down style hangoff in the 1970?s.

Initially this earth-shattering look was quite personal to the rider, each having his own iteration of the new form. Cal Raybourn and Kel Carruthers were halfway guys, still clinging a bit to phase two. Some others had lots of bum off, some with lots of leg and knee off, some rotated around the tank a la Mick Doohan. A few went head and body way down and on the inside of the tank, Randy Mamola style, some hung-off but remained sitting more upright like Kevin Schwantz. The torso positions for our other 500cc world champs of the era; Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer and Wayne Rainey were half way between, on the tank but not inside it. Most of the originals also tended to ride forward on the tank and finally, everyone was stationary in their hung-off position once in the corner. The neat part of that era, with all these splinter groups, was that a fan could have instant recognition of the individual?s style and look. Not so today, phase five is upon us.

Conceptually, hanging off couldn?t be simpler. Lower the combined Center of Gravity (CG) of the bike/rider combination and you go through the same corner at the same speed, on the same line with less lean angle: all in all, a brilliantly utilitarian racer?s tool with huge residual benefits; chief among them being an accurate, on-board gauge for lean angle and true to most evolutionary progressions, function now rules the new look and style of road racers.

Take a look; riders are low and inside of their bikes. More and more we see them perfectly in line with the machine, not twisted or rotated in the saddle. The bum off/body twisted back across the top of the bike positioning, which many phase four riders had been doing, was and still is an interesting piece of self-deception. With their torso mass on the higher side of the bike, it not only neutralizes the mass of the hips being off the bike but actually is a negative, raising the combined bike and rider C G--defeating the technique?s main function and purpose. Other notable changes include not being so stretched out as before but not always with the family jewels on the tank either. The one new variable in phase five riders is coming further off the bike mid-corner to exit. You?ll see it on the bum-cam position next time you watch riders like Val Rossi in Moto GP. That and the fore/aft in the saddle differences appear to be the only options available to our phase five evolution racers.

We have five choices now in how we can look and relate to our bikes. If you keep your eye on the style?s function and do some limbering exercises all the benefits of phase five will become apparent as you become comfortable with it. Is it easy? My experience says it is not a natural style at all and riders are hard pressed to assume the new form. If it is your desire to do it I suggest taking your time and step by step, experimenting with each of the stages through which it has evolved. Good luck.


? Keith Code, 2007.

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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 08:37:18 pm »
Nice add post. Thanks.
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RoadRunner1kRR

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 04:49:57 pm »
 :22 :18 :19  :21 :21AWESOME post Captain Z

Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 05:56:16 pm »
Even todays racers all have there Own styles. None are the same, But many similar.  There are/Have been some that are slightly crossed up in the torso Yet they can hang with every one else.
I wanna say mick Doohan is a good example.


Even rossi doesnt follow it like a Exact protocol. Not as crossed up as Doohan. But not described to the Tee as in the article qouted by Keith Code.


Also note the Mention in the Article about Kevin Schwans being a more upright rider. He preffered a VFR during classes @ his superbike school. Maybe it was more comfy for him. He would still stomp you into the asphalt.

Point is there is no single perfect Body position. Its a combo of what is comfy to you and still kkeep adequate control of the bike.
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Offline easyr6

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2011, 09:29:50 pm »
good old rossi. i need some better pics lol

Offline dlsgap

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 09:30:54 pm »
The most important thing to remember about dragging knee, is that it should be looked at as a result, not a goal. With time and practice, you'll get better body position and eventually you'll be dragging knee as just second nature as your speeds increase at corner entry, apex, and exit.

As mentioned, Having a properly tuned suspension can make or break you (literally) when it comes to cornering and knee dragging.

And the best place to practice is at a track day. You can get one on one instruction to help you improve every aspect of your riding and it is a MUCH safer environment than the street.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:52:18 pm by dlsgap »
Damien
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Offline Diannaleigh

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 10:44:11 pm »
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 10:46:07 pm by Diannaleigh »
Four wheels move the body.  Two wheels move the soul.  ~Author Unknown

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Offline DragonRider

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2011, 12:04:09 am »
I've seen a few vids like that, D, and they are all humbling. The best I've ever seen was a VFR-400 (also Japan) who was on the brakes so hard the rear was half off the ground, yet always smoooooooth...and just as with this group, legs were tight on the tanks, never down.   

Respect!!!

Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 12:15:45 am »
Thats a heck of a MSF course LOL
Quote from: Hot Blonde young Waitress
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Offline dlsgap

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2011, 10:30:03 am »
The Lee Parks total control class is great for it too... Lots of low speed parking lot dragging to get a feel for it
http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/

I think nashville is the closest they get to most of you guys.. but its a GREAT school
Damien
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Offline Curtie223

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 11:18:47 am »
wow....................that was something!!!!!

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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2011, 11:24:30 am »
The Lee Parks total control class is great for it too... Lots of low speed parking lot dragging to get a feel for it
http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/

I think nashville is the closest they get to most of you guys.. but its a GREAT school
They used to have a class in Maryville,tn.  But it got discontiued.

There is a Instructor from total control working on putting together a class in Robbinsville during the R1 convention @ fontana resort.  More details by searching on ETR..
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drop

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2011, 01:03:37 pm »
cool vid D.   that dude was giving that rr heck... but what idont understand, is while watching him he was jerking up on the front forks/triple tree.. im curious as to why

Offline moonshiner

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2011, 03:21:56 pm »
great vid , looks like a excellent way to improve cornering skills with out getting hurt to bad if you dump it , i use to do that a lot in empty parking lots, i think he was pulling up to take the weight off the front end for quick direction changes.

did you notice  , he had the rear and front brake partially on the most of the time ?.
i miss the good ole days , back when i was the only lunatic on the road ..

Offline Diannaleigh

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2011, 04:20:42 pm »
cool vid D.   that dude was giving that rr heck... but what idont understand, is while watching him he was jerking up on the front forks/triple tree.. im curious as to why

Thank Timay... I noticed this as well... I didn't understand why either... I assumed it was to put the bike into the tight corners... However, I have seen some riders do this without pulling up on the forks/tree like that.... I would love to hear others opinions?
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Offline Diannaleigh

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2011, 04:23:43 pm »
great vid , looks like a excellent way to improve cornering skills with out getting hurt to bad if you dump it , i use to do that a lot in empty parking lots, i think he was pulling up to take the weight off the front end for quick direction changes.

did you notice  , he had the rear and front brake partially on the most of the time ?

I did notice that... From what I understand it allows more control over the bike ? I have been told to ONLY use rear brake in a curve, front braking would be disastrous, unless in an emergency, then straighten the bike up and do a 'quick stop'.
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drop

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2011, 05:52:36 pm »
NEVER REAR BRAKES... EVER.. UNLESS IN THE GRAVEL/GRASS..

ALWAYS FRONT BRAKES

Offline dlsgap

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2011, 06:42:53 pm »
trail braking can work wonders for helping to control a bike... and can be done with either front, rear, or both together.. but its not something everyone can do.. takes alot of practice to get it right.
Damien
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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2011, 06:46:27 pm »
NEVER REAR BRAKES... EVER.. UNLESS IN THE GRAVEL/GRASS..

ALWAYS FRONT BRAKES
Rear brakes can be good during slow speed/parkinglot  turns. with practice and use they help to squat the suspension and Aid in slow speed Manuvers.
Also less likely to accidently crash from locking up the rear on things like gravel.

On the street at speed the Front brakes are your best friend.  And yes you can use them while in a Curve or @ turnin just be cautious.  This is referred to as Trail braking, As your usually Trailing off (gradually) the front brake setting your corner entry speed.

you can use the rear in a corner but be very cautious, Not only is the lever in a bad spot for hard right lean angles but when combined with Drag from the engine can quikly make it step out and highside you when it rehooks.
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Offline moonshiner

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2011, 12:52:08 am »
I did notice that... From what I understand it allows more control over the bike ? I have been told to ONLY use rear brake in a curve, front braking would be disastrous, unless in an emergency, then straighten the bike up and do a 'quick stop'.

from my experiences ,even the right technique at the wrong time can be disastrous , you have only a split second before the right thing to do  becomes the wrong thing and its ever changing  , you should brake before entering the curve , ultimately you can only perform what your bike is capable of , i don't think this is stressed enough , know your motorcycle and know it well , then it will become your trusty steed , just like a real stallion it can do unpredictable things at inopportune moments , after pre flight inspect ,the second thing i do before i ride a newly acquired bike any further than the end of the block is the TEST , i check stopping distances at various speeds several times and average them together , slow and high speed maneuvering , stability and cornering , acceleration and down shifting , the two most common motorcycle wrecks are , collision with another vehicle and failure to negotiate a turn , the second one can be prevented ,the first one should be avoided by any means necessary .

a fellow i know  crashed his goldwing 1100 in a curve at 70 mph , he said that halfway through the curve he just realize that he wasn't riding his triumph bonneville.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 12:54:04 am by moonshiner »
i miss the good ole days , back when i was the only lunatic on the road ..

Offline Diannaleigh

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2011, 12:12:59 pm »
I use a combination of the brakes when in a curve, but always remember the key "Try to only brake in a straight line. You setup for the curve before you get to it." :) Danny saw me almost eat it when a car slammed on their brakes HARD in a curve and I panicked and did the worse thing possible. I grabbed a huge fist of front brake. This is why I am more confident using my rear brake in a curve, and I don't ever have so much lean angle going on that it is a bad idea for me. I can see where you guys are coming from, because you all ride aggressively. :) For now, I just ride lol.

I have gotten more comfortable with my front brake since that run in which is a good thing. :)

In the end I believe it is all in how the rider feels more confident and most comfortable. :) It is an individual preference and as long as you are keeping the shiny side up you are doing good. LOL  :36
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Offline moonshiner

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2011, 07:43:46 am »
my bikes are old , they don't tolerate being rode aggressively and i don't tolerate pain as well as i use to ..lol , oh of course whats the use in having a stallion if you can't turn him loose once in a while , the most speeding i do now is to keep from being run over by traffic , the biggest problem i have seen is idiots on the wrong side of the road in a blind curve, i mean you try to mellow out and just enjoy the ride and the whole world goes stupid on you ..lol
i miss the good ole days , back when i was the only lunatic on the road ..

Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2011, 06:43:21 pm »
my bikes are old , they don't tolerate being rode aggressively and i don't tolerate pain as well as i use to ..lol , oh of course whats the use in having a stallion if you can't turn him loose once in a while , the most speeding i do now is to keep from being run over by traffic , the biggest problem i have seen is idiots on the wrong side of the road in a blind curve, i mean you try to mellow out and just enjoy the ride and the whole world goes stupid on you ..lol

Thats when you politely walk up to them and let them know they did something really stupid, It has alot more effect if you make sure his/her friends hear it also..

Im not gonna say I dont lane cross or pass on Dbl ylws, But doing it in a Blind curve is just stupid.  Most dont realize just how fast another vehicle can appear when there moving at a good pace..  
Take the gap for example, The faster guys up there (very aggressive) are moving at a minimum of 50 mph, And alot more in some curves.
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Offline moonshiner

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Re: To Drag or not to drag that is the issue
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2011, 09:02:11 pm »
i have never been almost run over by a motorcyclist like that , my last couple of near misses and they were only near misses because i sought refuge in the ditch , have been dodge ram pickups and minivans on the wrong side of the road , yeah i was fighting mad they new better than to stop. :2

i have always had the habit that in a blind curve i will go slow and ride the white line , riding the white line made my wife nervous till she had her first experience with idgit's on the wrong side of the road .
i miss the good ole days , back when i was the only lunatic on the road ..