Author Topic: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?  (Read 3461 times)

Offline Outlaws Justice

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Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« on: October 15, 2014, 08:23:13 am »
In my Free time I teach all types of motorsports at many levels, Dirt, Street, Track etc. I have been involved in Motorsports Education for 20 years and over the years I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either.

I know that some groups are more likely to search out rider training programs, advanced training programs and participate in training than others, ie. from my experience BMW riders tend to be represented in advanced riding classes way above the average and disproportionately in relation to the numbers of bikes sold and on the road. In some Classes they can account for almost 1/3 of the riders in advanced classes. (It does vary by region)

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

I like to equate rider training to our formal education, completion of the Basic classes like the MSF BRC is about the same as graduating from the 3rd grade. You did not quite school after the third grade but most riders tend to be of the opinion that the 3rd grade level of rider education is enough. There is so much more out there that can make you a better rider, and in turn might actually even save your life, so what prevents you from wanting to be better? I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossi you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did?  Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:29:48 am by Outlaws Justice »

Offline Chris

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 09:06:52 am »
David,

A good post and I think the subject of rider training and education is an issue that needs to be emphasized.  My only reservation is that you address only advanced rider training when I would observe the vast majority of riders have had no formal training at all. Your post equated the MSF BRC (or whatever they're calling it these days.) with graduating from third grade.  In thinking of rider training like that your post asking for advanced training is like pushing college when most folks haven't even been to kindergarten. So, I'd personally hope to broaden the plea to ask folks to consider getting any training at all to start with.

I'm a true believer in rider training by the way.  I started riding back in the day when you'd buy a bike or borrow one from a friend and after a couple of minutes in the parking lot being shown where the various levers and pedals were and maybe an exhortation to be real careful of the front brake off you went to sink or swim.  Like most folks, I did a bit of both...both getting along swimmingly when things went well and sinking when overcome by ignorance.  So, when the opportunity to become a motorcycle safety instructor came along as an additional duty in the USAF I jumped at it since there had to be a better way to learn than the one I had experienced. I was a MSF instructor for about 11 years and it was very gratifying.  I especially welcomed the experienced rider course when it came along as it gave riders additional training to further their riding education.  Teaching it was more rewarding as well, as you could build on each riders experience and get a real dialog going with shared experiences and lessons learned.

I also had some track training along the way as well back in my racing days with the CRRC in Texas.  My most recent course was two years ago when I  took the opportunity to attend the MSF's Military Sportbike Riders Course while stationed at Yokosuka Navy Base.  So for me, my 40+ years on two wheels have been punctuated periodically by classes to help me be a better rider.

I think the greatest good obtaining from periodic training, both refresher and new content, is simply the attitude fostered while taking a class.  You're there to become a better rider.  You're consciously trying new things or trying to further perfect old skills.  Of course you can do those things in your every day riding, and it's a smart rider who does.  But the formal teaching setting of being in a class seems to focus most people, especially me, more clearly on the learning process, and I think we get better results quicker than in a more casual approach.

Consider, how well would most of us be in the 3 R's  (I know, I know, only one of them starts with R!) if we hadn't had teachers and schools to help us learn but had just been sat down with a book and told, "go for it!"  Plainly we needed the formal settings of classes and instructors to gains those skills and perfect them.  Why should learning how to ride be handled any differently?

David, thanks for the great post on an important subject.  I hope this can become a discussion on just what sorts of training would most benefit riders from the various disciplines and tribes of motorcycling as I suspect the sort of training hoped for by a cruiser guy might be quite different from a Gold Wing rider and both of them wouldn't want what a sport rider might ask for.  And that's before we even think about trikes and dirt bikes.

Chris
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 02:03:39 pm by Chris »
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Offline emd513

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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 09:14:55 am »
I would do it if I had the money but can barely afford to keep tires under me much less anything else at the moment.
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Offline IanC

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 09:23:06 am »
I'm pretty much with Donald on this one. I would love to take advanced courses but finances and time haven't really allowed it so far.
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Offline Outlaws Justice

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 09:49:01 am »
Chris thanks for the well thought out reply.

Yes I equate the BRC with graduating the third grade, and I am NOT promoting college at this point.

BRC = 3rd grade
BRC II (ERC) = 6th grade
MSF ARC = 9th grade
Total Control = Graduating high school

There is much more out there that would be college level and some I have taken or want to take. I also think if someone is on the road and riding "OK" they may benefit from even a BRC but I would say they may already have some "Education Level" although maybe not all the right tools. These folks can benefit from any training, but maybe more than the BRC might be beneficial.

In some states training is free, so I am looking to find out riders thoughts on the matter, why they do no take training at all or why not more advanced classes??

Offline Chris

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 12:20:20 pm »
Chris thanks for the well thought out reply.

Yes I equate the BRC with graduating the third grade, and I am NOT promoting college at this point.

BRC = 3rd grade
BRC II (ERC) = 6th grade
MSF ARC = 9th grade
Total Control = Graduating high school

There is much more out there that would be college level and some I have taken or want to take. I also think if someone is on the road and riding "OK" they may benefit from even a BRC but I would say they may already have some "Education Level" although maybe not all the right tools. These folks can benefit from any training, but maybe more than the BRC might be beneficial.

In some states training is free, so I am looking to find out riders thoughts on the matter, why they do no take training at all or why not more advanced classes??

David,


I can see from your second post that we're not very far apart on the need and approximate level of training needed by certain riders.  I would say that for many riders, as with life, a 6th grade education is basically adequate to get through life.  if someone has made it through the ERC then we can be confident that they have the tools to be a competent and safe rider.  That doesn't mean that they couldn't benefit from learning more!  I only mean they have reached a minimum skill set to be safe and have fun.

As to which course a rider with no training but a few years street experience should take my gut feeling is that question would depend on whether they understand and use counter steering and whether they know basic cornering skills such as where to look and why.  If they do...then the ERC would be a good initial training.    If not, (and it's scary sometimes asking someone how they steer a motorcycle) then perhaps the BRC is the right starting point.  Every rider is different but if I had to put a years of experience expectation on the different training courses I might venture that with 2-3 years experience or less the initial BRC would be the right choice and with 4-5 years or more the ERC would be the best choice.  But again, an assessment of the individual's skills would determine the proper course.

Please don't conclude that I think more advanced training isn't needed.  If a rider wants to progress, to get better, then further training is very beneficial and desirable.  And, as you point out, there are plenty of different types of training available.  I'm not against advanced training, no, not at all.  I just think the larger need is to get a majority of riders to have at least attended some sort of training to equip them with those basic skills to ensure their safety.

And yes, I do ride BMWs.  :) 

(and almost anything else with two wheels I can get my hands on.)

Thanks again for bringing this subject up.

Chris

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Offline BudLong

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 01:12:52 pm »
I would venture a guess that participation in further riding courses beyond the BRC is probably hindered by "time and money" for most riders.  I'd like to take the next course (BRC II).  but until it's offered for free or i have a LOT of extra play money, it just ain't gonna happen.

i would also guess that most folks probably don't think about it much either.  i mean once you get your lisence, you just do your thing.  i could see if someone was really into track riding/racing having a specific interest in learning more.  but for "casual" riders and people that mostly use their bike to commute it probably just doesn't come up unless they see something advertised.

this gives me a thought though.  i could ask my family to send me to the next course as a gift for father's day or a birthday or something.  i'd work at making time to do it if it was paid for.

Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 07:59:37 pm »
I have never taken any classes besides reading a lot of info on many forums and putting it to the bars in practice, Done a few track days and had ALOT of near ooops moments on the hill,,  No major oops except losing the front in some sand one winter with snow still on the roads. 

As said, I would love to do a BRC or advanced but $$$$ just isn't there right now.   I do occasionally do some slow speed manuvers in parking lots and brake testing once in awhile to stay on top of what my bike can handle or I have the guts to try....


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Offline Outlaws Justice

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 01:49:54 pm »
but $$$$ just isn't there right now.   I do occasionally do some slow speed manuvers in parking lots and brake testing once in awhile to stay on top of what my bike can handle or I have the guts to try....

Well Make sure to get in touch with me for the Total Control Class in the spring, maybe I can help you out.

Offline Sarge

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2014, 06:53:32 pm »
How much are the classes? Do you have to start at the most basic and take them in order?  Where and when?
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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 11:07:36 pm »
Well Make sure to get in touch with me for the Total Control Class in the spring, maybe I can help you out.

will try timing is everything, more so due to my job, every year I see you post about TCC but life seems to get in the way.. 


FYI Ive had people yell at me while playing on the fiddy track at dgmr :I hope you crash"    There just jealous they cant drag a knee around a traffic cone on a VFR800 or a CBR929  :34
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Offline Chris

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2014, 02:30:07 am »
Sounds like we could put together enough people wanting the training just from our ETBr's.  If I were in the US when the training happened I'd be up to it.
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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2014, 08:21:22 pm »
Sounds like we could put together enough people wanting the training just from our ETBr's.  If I were in the US when the training happened I'd be up to it.

for many of ue the $$$ is the bigb draw back,  Its well worth it IMHO... 

I learned a lot by playing in parking lots at low speed 20-25mph  ...
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Fine dont eat my CUPCAKES then

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Offline Outlaws Justice

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2014, 09:03:17 am »
How much are the classes? Do you have to start at the most basic and take them in order?  Where and when?

A lot of Factors, what level you ride at now, and what you want to learn to improve, what classes have you taken in the past etc. I teach many programs and also travel when vacation time permits so I often take classes to new locations, been to Deals Gap (Robbinsville) Maryville, Nashville and many other places!

Offline ratster

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2014, 09:10:23 am »
The ONLY reason I didn't attend your classes this year was because you guys dropped the Knoxville area classes. Hopefully that will change in 2015. Nashville is just to far away for me.

Offline Outlaws Justice

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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2014, 03:18:05 pm »
The ONLY reason I didn't attend your classes this year was because you guys dropped the Knoxville area classes. Hopefully that will change in 2015. Nashville is just to far away for me.

I will see what I can do about getting to the Knoxville are in the loop when I hit Nashville!

but this thread is about more than Just Total Control.