Author Topic: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement - Burgman 400(UPDATE - DONE)  (Read 4839 times)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Decided to start on the Burgman 400 CVT Belt task THU. May ride to gym FRI, then work on Scooter and maybe have it ready for test run SUN  :)  after the rainout SAT  :(.  
 
Second Tool Worked -- I did come up with a "TOOL" (second try) to get the nut off the primary pulley shaft (which is the shaft out of the engine) and took things apart for cleaning. The "TOOL" holds the primary pulley via the Fan Fins in place while backing off the shaft nut (75 ft lb). Ton of belt dust in the Variator. (Variator is back side of primary pulley system -- the part that moves and squeezes the belt, and where the Roller Weights are located).
 
Old belt measures 25MM vs 26MM new. Can't see that causing my RPM increase (use to be around 6000 for 60mph and is running 6700rpm now.) I think it is more due to the condition of the Roller Weights (some wore a bit flat) and the DUST in the Roller Weight slots. If the Rollers cannot move out fully as designed, then the pulley would not push the belt out to maximum diameter  and result in lower gearing at high speed.
 
First tool broke -- I had made a pattern tool from wood (figured I would get Gary to make me one of steel). I decided the pattern might be strong enough to hold the fins which act as a fan on the fixed side of the pulley system. WRONG, it broke when I tried to take the Nut Off (torque is 75 ft lbs).
 
There were some other Do It Yourself tool Ideas on www.burgmanusa.com and one of the simplest ideas was what I used. I had some scrap thin plywood and bolts nuts to 'jury rig' one. :-)  Maybe I should be on a Grand Jury or a Prosecutor. :-)
 
One worry -- all the tools (Even Suzuki Tool) put pressure on the Fan Fins (only two of the fins) and folks have managed to break a fin off. So, I was worried about that. One guys tool used 6 bolts thru plywood to make contact with more fins (others just use two bolts). I used three bolts thru the plywood and hoped.
 
IT WORKED, got the nut loose. I should be able to use the same tool (work better as the arm will reach the floor for resistance when putting nut back on - turning CW).  
 
Reads on FORUM indicate one needs to have the CVT Belt at high point in the primary pulley (VS low point where it normally sets) when torquing the bolt back on. Not sure how to get the belt down into the secondary (Driven) pulley in order to give slack for the front. One guy used a sloped (tapered better word) hammer handle to force secondary pulley open and the belt down into it.
 
Not even sure that is absolutely necessary as see Videos where they did not.
 
However, it is critical to get the primary pulley nut on their correctly as some folks have had the nut back off and do a lot of damage to the Case, Pulley and Fan Fins, etc.). The darn thing is not pinned -- just torqued on.
 
One guy said put locktite on the shaft behind the bolt (I can't see that holding anything if the nut comes  loose and has a tendency to vibrate off). Funny it would come off as the Pulley rotates CCW and the Nut tightens CW.

Big worry there is to get that doen correctly as some folks have had the nut come loose and back off (I guess from vibration as pulley rotation is CCW and Nut tightens CW). There is no pin to hold it, just the torque 75 ft lbs).
 
Picture story:
First removal attempt, second remoavle worked. Cleaned up Variator (lot of belt dust). Might mention - recommended belt replacemet is 14,500 miles - I have 22,700 miles on this one. A number fo folks go 20,000 or more before replacing.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 09:21:21 am by PAULRIDES »
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline Luvmystar

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement (attempt) - Burgman 400
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 10:58:00 am »
 :21
Marc

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Offline Sarge

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement (attempt) - Burgman 400
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 10:07:07 pm »
Looking good.
Semper Fi

Offline IanC

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement (attempt) - Burgman 400
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2014, 11:11:19 pm »
That's quite the contraption you made. Looks like it did the trick.
1978 Suzuki GS1000EC - Completely custom.
2012 Triumph Daytona 675R

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement (attempt) - Burgman 400
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 09:20:18 am »
Try to keep it short on the present status, which is DONE. Howeevr, not road tested, just ested on center stand with cover off the CVt.  Do ROAD Test in about 20 minutes at 9:30am ON sun morn ride, waiting for a little warm up to 40F on this SUN Morn.  :happyrider

Just some more pictures showing installation and operation.   

FIRST picture - Sliders vs Rollers.

SECOND picture - Sliders in the Moveable Pulley Face (Variator) that is free to slide on a shaft to squeeze the belt against the fixed ppulley plate and make the belt move to a larger diameter on front (Drive) pulley while the back (Driven) pulley spreads so the belt acn slide down in it. Result - Higher Gear as speeds and rpm increase.

THIRD picture - Holding in my hand the Ramp Plate (it is slopped to allow the weights to push against the Variator, part where the Sliders are installed, as the weights move out). That Ramp Plate that will slide over the studs in the Variator to hold the Sliders in place AND MORE IMPORTANTLY give the Sliders (Rollers) a plate to push against (it is fixed with respect to the shaft) so the sliders push the rest of the Variator toward the fixed pulley plate. You can see the 8 areas where the old rollers  moved in the cover plate. As you know the weigst (Sliders or Rollers) are forced outward by centrifugal force as the pulley spins. Also, note the spline gear slots in the center of the Ramp Plate in my hand. That is the contact with the engine shaft and the slotted plastic things transfer the force to the variator thru those platic looking things (once the plate is installed in the  variator).

FOURTH picture - Complete Variator assembly. Note the Ramp Plate is now connected to the Variator pulley and the splines in center will connect it to the Engine Shaft.

FIFTH Picture -- The other side view of the Variator Assembly shows the shaft coming out of it. That shaft slides over the engine shaft and the Variator slides back and forth on it as it moves IN/Out to squeeze the belt to different diameters on the front (Drive) pulley. Make Sense???

SIXTH Picture -- Variator mounted on the Engine Sahft. Note how the shaft coming out of the Variator is slide over the engine shaft (not geared to it). As I noted befroe the Variator is driven by the Engine shaft thru the splines in the Ramp Plate. The Variator (moveable part of the front (Drive) pulley can slde back and forth on it's on shaft.

SEVENTH picture -- A litttle ahead of the game here, but pictures shows view of the rear pulley (Driven) pulley and the Clutch Assemble (right side) with the Spring that holds the plates of the pulley together. As the Belt Diameter on the front (Drive) pulley increases, it has to pull the rear (Driven) pulley open so the belt can slide down in it. (the belt is constant length). SO, we have changing sprocket sizes (sprocket size is one way to look at it - start small on front and large on rear for lower gear for more torque, then larger on front and smaller on back for higher gear for more speed).  :happypep

The CLUTCH is centrifugal operated. Inside the outside thingy (Call it the Bowl or Bell Housing) is a set of five Shoes (look like small brake shoes on a drum brake) that move out to contact the sides of the Bowl (Bell Housing). They move out as the speed (RPM) of the second pulley increases. When rhe Bowl (Bell Hosuying) starts spinning is when the WHEEL SPINS.  :happypep

EIGHT Picture -- Shows the belt and DIRECTIONAL arrows.

NINTH Picture -- Shows the belt installed

TENTH picture -- Shows the outside face (FAN FINS for cooling on it) of the front (Drive) Pulley installed on he shaft, but NUT not torqued.

ELEVENTH Pictrue -- Shows the rear pulley and belt position as I was doing the torquing procedure. It is important to get the  belt down in the rear (Driven) pulley in order to have enough slack at the front (Drive) pulley. I forced the belt down into the rear pulley somewhat with a narrow block of wood and a hammer. The idea is to give slack at the front (Drive) pulley to PREVENT the Belt from sitting too low in the pulley while trying to torque the nut on the shaft. The outer pulley (Fan Fin Pulley) has to be against the extra shaft that comes out of the Variator when you are torquing the nut. IF THE BELT was too low in the pulley, you would be torquing the nut against the elt vs the shaft. Then when you run the engine, the belt would move up and the nut would be loose. IT HAS BEEN KNOWN - some folks have had the nut work off the shaft and of course much damage results when the pulley (FAN FIN) hits the case, etc.  :groan :groan   

I am hoping I did it right. I marked the nut, washer, shaft and added some Plumbers Goop Adhesive behind the nut hoping that if it comes loose, it would stay on the shaft and I would recognize somethig (RPM CHANGE) is wrong before it came all the way off. It does not require too much effort to remove the air filter for the CVT and see the nut. So, I wil check it at close intervasl for awhile. 

TWELFTH Picture -- All done, Torqued up and ran the engine at idle with center stand (rear wheel off ground).

THIRTEENTH Picture -- Lucky 13 I hope  :) shows the Fin Fan Pulley up against the shaft out of the Variator (got it torqued OK, I hope).

FOURTEENTH and FIFTEENTH Pictures -- Show slack in new belt vs old belt. Not sure what that means, but had the pictures , so stuck them in here.  ::)

TEST RIDE NEXT -- Hope I got the Sliders in Correctly (sometimes they flip as you slide the Varaitor on the shaft as it is hard to hold the Ramp Platein against the Variator. Also, hope the nut stays put (seems they would pin that thing behind the nut or something).  ???

 
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement - Burgman 400(UPDATE - DONE)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2014, 10:59:05 am »
Project worked -- Based on a 110 mile TEST RIDE over various type roads (no gravel though) from 20 MPH to 80 MPH roads.

Like the more RPM, lower gearing and more torque (I think a bit more) at low speeds and lower RPM, higher gearing at speeds over 40MPH. 40 MPH seems to be about where RPM = 100 x Speed in MPH (depends of course on road and if accelerating or not).

Examples of  Speed vs RPM

I was showing with  the Old Worn Belt (22,700 miles vs recommended 14,500 miles) and old Roller Weights with Variator full of Belt Dust at say 50 mph or 60 mph (RPM =  Speed times 100 PLUS 700).

Now, I show at 50 and up to 80mph (test range) with New Belt and Sliders vs Rollers, and dust cleaned out of Variator (RPM = Speed times 100 MINUS 100 to 1500).

Dash Pictures tell the Story -- Some road pictures also to show where I was (roads level or slight upgrades or slow roads like the one lane 20 mph road).

The first three pictures are on I-175 going north out of Knoxville, basically level and not accelerating or decelerating. The 80 mph was after passing a truck that was doing the speed limit on Hwy 61 - wanted to get past him before we got to the GOOD CURVES (hate following a darn truck at 20 mph around switchbacks and good sweeping curves). Check Ride reports for the rest of the ride and you will see what good curves I am talking about.   
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement - Burgman 400(UPDATE - DONE)
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 10:29:08 pm »
One more performace observation after total of about 300 miles.

MPG is 63MPG based on oddometrer readings and gas used.

Summary on RPM vs Speed in MPH:

Around 50 MPH is break even point where RPM is right at 100 times speed (5000 RPM at 50 MPH). That varies some with conditions and acceleration.

BELOW 50MPH - say 20 to 45 MPH range (20 MPH is normally right at 4000 RPM for most load conditions) & (30 MPH is normally right at 5000 RPM for most load conditions) & (40 MPH is close around 4500 to 4700 RPM for msot road conditions).

ABOVE 50 MPH - say 60 to 80 MPH, 80 is fastest I have been so far. The RPM is generally always les than MPH x 100. (60MPH is about 5200 RPM) & (70 MPH is about 6000 RPM) & (80 MPH is 6300 RPM)  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 10:30:47 pm by PAULRIDES »
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement - Burgman 400(UPDATE - DONE)
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2014, 10:22:23 pm »
Burgman Acceleration and Speed test Today (Sunday) at 39F Degrees Cold  :groan

Some Opinions and some Facts (The MPH vs RPM Pictures are Fact, rest is opinions).


Opinions:

Low speed acceleration Zero MPH up to 60MPH is better than before the new Belt and using Sliders vs Rollers gives lower gearing as advertiswed by DR Pulley. I am pretty sure, but not precise measurments now and none before -- I counted 1001, 1002, 1003, etc. -- I say around 7 seconds, could be 8 to 65MPH INDICATED - I did it three times at Full Throttle (Car Tire on Rear take 7% off indicated to get actual). As I said - Lower gearing as advertised by Dr Pulley.

Higher speed acceleration from 50 or 60 MPH up to 70 MPH INDICATED is plenty satisfactory. From 70 MPH to 80 or 90 MPH takes a little while, don't try passing in a short distance. I think about like it was before Belt and Slider replaced the Rollers. Maybe a bit less acceleration based on fact higher speeds give higher gearing as advertised by Dr Pulley. Not a Burgman 650, but adequate.

Top speed is not much over 95 MPH INDICATED (Car Tire on Rear take 7% off indicated to get actual). It takes some time to get from 75 to 95 MPH INDICATED. I think that is about the same as before. However, before I could hit red line of 9000 RPM, I don't think it will now (probably due to higher gearing with the Sliders vs rollers). Higher gearing at high speed as advertised by Dr Pulley

Facts:

Dash RPM and MPH pictures pretty well show how MPH and RPMs are related under full throttle acceleration. NOTE: As I said before, I don't think the Scooter will REV to 9000 RPM (Red Line) anymore. I guess the Sliders are producing higher gearing - obvious in that the RPM are lower at each speed over 50 MPH than they use to be.

Start at 50 MPH at 5000 RPM and go Full Throttle.

No picturre I noted RPM jumps to 6000 / 6200 RPM pretty quickly and then falls back a little before building up again.

Picture 1 65 MPH at 5600 RPM

Picture 2 73 MPH at 6100 RPM

Picture 3 80 MPH at 7250 RPM

Picture 4 95 MPH at 7700 RPM (ran out of road, but I think that was about all the Ol Gal would do)
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline Sarge

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement - Burgman 400(UPDATE - DONE)
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2014, 01:15:10 pm »
Paul
Your technical prowess amazes me.
Darrell

 :21
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: MY First CVT Belt & Roller Weight Replacement - Burgman 400(UPDATE - DONE)
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2015, 08:55:37 am »
Final Drive Oil replacement (a whole 180ML) requires removal of CVT Cover to get to the Level Plug (use that plug to refill).

Pain in the butt -- but maybe a good idea as means you will take a look a t inside of CVT once in a while to Clean the Filter, Inspect the Belt & Clutch Shoes, and clean Belt Dust out.

Not a big deal to remove the cover usually, just a little plastic to get out of the way  and about 13 bolts to take out. That is once you know the cover contains the clutch end shaft bearing and the shaft and bearing sort of bind to where you can't just pull the cover off, you need a couple bolts to screw into the cover that push against the clutch bell to help get the cover started off the shaft. 

THIS TIME --- two bolts would not turn (as if corroded or galled - don't know why for sure as did not have a ny problem putting them back in the last time and did not over tighten - very little torque on them). Anyway, they (two of 'em) ended up twisting off:

One on the filter (two are used to retain the filter in the cover). It would be accessible with the cover off  to get the bolt out. I plan to put it back together as is since still one bolt to hold the filter in the cover.

Second bolt is one that holds the plastic outer cover on over the metal main cover. It also goes thru the main cover and aids in holding it on. A bit more of a problem to remove that broken bolt as it is on the housing attached to the scooter. The main cover has 10 other bolts holding it and the plastic outer cover has two others (one on the rear end and one in the middle). So, I intend to put it back together as is. Maybe try to do something the next time I take the Variator off the motor output shaft to change the belt or slider weights.

ANYBODY have a good suggestion as to what I should do to get the old bolts out (EZ Out, Drill, Tap new threads-- or just ignore it). I do plan to use anti seize on the bolts when I put them back in (had noted corrosion on other occasions and cleaned them up before re installing). 

Anyway, here are  of the Clutch Pads, Belt, Broken Bolts, and the Filter:

1) Clutch Pads are original and 36,900 mile of use. I add that the Scooter has never had much of a Clutch Shudder problem, but as far as I am concerned has been completely negligible since I changed the Rollers to DR Pulley Sliders (19GM) at 22,600 miles. The 22,600 miles is when I changed the belt the first time (Installed Suzuki Belt). I have never disassembled the clutch to do any thing to the pads or the clutch  bell. .   

2) Belt was replaced once at 22,600 miles and has 14,200 miles on this one. A pattern on side of  belt - don't know if had that originally.

3) The two pictures after the belt picture show twisted off bolts (air filter hold bolt and case plastic cover and main cover  bolt). The case bolt picture is blurry, the bolt is about an inch down and an inch to left of upper left corner of picture (blurry picture).

4) The filter is original,  but clean regularly and has 6200 miles since last cleaned. Pictures are before and after washing with hand soap.

Washing the filter --- First brushed lightly to get rid of debris, then ran some water from faucet thru it (not much comes out), I then washed once with hand soap from a dispenser, I then rinsed and all kinds of dirt came out in the rinse. Second and third wash gave little or no dirt in the rinse.

Maybe should replace, but went 73,800 miles on a Burgman 650 with the original filter. CVT did fail at 73 ,800 -- I sold it as was. Guy that bought it fixed it and said ,"The servo gear that controls the width of the primary pulley had a chunk broken out of it and it appeared that got into the belt and belt had some damage."   




Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)