Author Topic: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer  (Read 4116 times)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Finally took the time to remove Front Sprocket to get a better look at the shaft, splines, retaining washer, and sprocket. Took Pictures after cleaning things up a bit of the grease accumulation from chain lube and a slight leak around the seal.
 
Now have to decide if the new washer will solve the problem or if other wear is excessive. ????  Looking for suggestions.  
 
First Picture I took at Townsend after we got the sprocket back in placer and the retaining washer flipped over 180 hoping for better contact between it's worn teeth and the outside edge splines. Things stayed on the shaft coming home as I kept it below 3000 rpm and about 30MPH. However, the retaining washer and sprocket had moved out on the shaft.
 
Second picture shows retaining washer was just a bit past the edge of the shaft vs sitting about 1/8 inch back on the shaft.
 
The rest of the pictures show the parts after clean up and  taking the sprocket off the shaft. The critical thing will be ? if the new retainign washer will hold things in place considering wear on the parts).
 
The shaft pictures (next 3 of them) show the splines at various angles.
 
I think there has been some wear on the splines where the sprocket sits (as that portion looks a bit more narrow to me). On the other hand it may be made that way.  ??? And, I don't think that will be a problem if the thing will stay on the shaft with a new retaining washer (part is on order).
 
Also the shaft pictures show the groove at the end of the shaft where the retaining washer sits so you can slide it on over the edge splines and then rotate it a slight amount CCW) so the teeth on the retaining washer are behind the end splines which keeps the retaining washer and sprocket from sliding off.
NOTE: The screws holes thru the washer after a slight CCW rotation line up with the threaded holes in the sprocket. Then screws are installed to hold the retaining washer in that position with relation to the sprocket. Since the sprocket cannot turn on the shaft and the teeth on the washer are now behind the edge splines neither can slide off the shaft.  I assume that makes sense - since the sprocket cannot turn on the shaft and the retaining washer is attached to the sprocket AND neither can slide off past the end splines (assuming things are not worn too much.
 
One thing that bothers me is the end flanges seem to be worn flat (may be designed that way, I don't remember what it looked like when new) and they slope back to the groove (it seems that would be more squared off than sloped).  

Retaining Washer Picture - The Retaining Washer is obviously worn, the bike has 54,000 miles. This is third chain and sprocket and about 5000 miles since last replacement. The Retaining Washer might have had some wear at last replacement and I figured no problem (I do not remember). Anyway, it seemed OK and was fine for 5000 miles. IF things were a bit worn and then use made things worse - could have caused the situation at Townsend.

Sprocket Pictures - Sprocket splines -- Maybe not as square as when new. I don't know. There is a little play (rotation) when installed.  Teeth have pretty even wear from chain and front teeth slopped a bit.

First thing is - I have ordered a new retaining washer and will see if it looks like it will hold things together.

Any thoughts about all this regarding any possible fixes will be appreciated.  ;D 

Weld the dang washer on the shaft? Grind weld off next time change sprocket.  ::)
Maybe a C Spring Clip instead of a retaining washer with teeth?   
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:17:45 pm by PAULRIDES »
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Offline Marid2apterbilt

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2015, 09:50:24 pm »
I would definitely start with New washer AND Sprocket.  Then see how much play the sprocket has on the shaft.  By design I would assume the shaft Won't wear near as quick or easily as the other 2 pieces.
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 08:37:05 am »
I would definitely start with New washer AND Sprocket.  Then see how much play the sprocket has on the shaft.  By design I would assume the shaft Won't wear near as quick or easily as the other 2 pieces.

Thanks had similar response via E Mail from a couple folks -- here is my response to Mike Foley and a Fiend in FL.

Talking sprocket and washer here -- Hope someone has an idea of what to do if that does not work.

Replacing the shaft is a big job (have to take whole engine apart). I don't think I am into that unless as a "try it project". And taking it in would cost more than the bike is worth (2008 with 54K miles). It is a fun ride, but I have been thinking about another ride (not sure what - just another fun bike) to go along with the Scooter. 
 
Pretty much what I decided to do, Sprocket and washer. (unless someone has a brilliant idea).

I ordered the retaining washer and screws when Jackie and I stopped at McD on the way home that day  (screws are not needed, but in a weak moment when ordering the washer, I  told them to include the screws $1.50 each and $9 for the washer). The screws are tight (and I put a bit lock tight when installing them). They really don't do much - just hold the washer to the sprocket. 
 
I think the front sprocket is in the $20 range and will order it. I had originally thought not to change it as it only has 5000 or so on it. I have gone 15000 to as much as 30000 on a chain and sprockets. But, seeing the slight rotational play of the sprocket, I think I will try a new one. Doubt it will fit any tighter (rotational) as the splines appear narrow were where the sprocket sits. I can't remember how a new sprocket fits (rotational), but the old one may have some wear in the teeth that go to the spline.
 
However, I would think the rotational movement (even slight) would cause wear on the retaining washer as it rests against the splines at the groove on back edge of that short splines t end of the shaft. So, it would rotate back and forth on those splines wearing the teeth on the washer. Perhaps is what caused the slope on the edge splines (they slope back to the groove if you look close) and wore out the retaining washer. 
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Offline Chris

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 12:32:54 pm »
I concur that you need a new front sprocket.  As best as I can see there is some wear on the output shaft splines but since replacing that shaft involves splitting the cases I would try a new sprocket and see where that leaves you.  Try lightly greasing the output shaft splines before installing the new sprocket to help prevent future excessive wear.
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 03:13:27 pm »
I concur that you need a new front sprocket.  As best as I can see there is some wear on the output shaft splines but since replacing that shaft involves splitting the cases I would try a new sprocket and see where that leaves you.  Try lightly greasing the output shaft splines before installing the new sprocket to help prevent future excessive wear.

Thanks for responding Chris.

I have applied a little greese to the shaft after taking it apart yesterday. I NEVER DID BEFORE.  :(

Most every one (I respect) has suggested a new sprocket and washer and see how it looks, which is what I intended to do unless receved real bad news.  :groan 

One Question --- Wondering about quality of Front Srockets (After market VS OEM)???

OEM is around $46 +/- depending on where you get it and consider tax, shipping, etc.  MTN Adventrure discounted price not far off of one other source I checked (like to help them if not too far out of line). Like washer and two srews from MTN MTR SPORT will be $12 something plus tax and would have been $9.50 from Chapparal (then worry about shipping if not ordering $100 worth).  I ordered from Mtn Mtr Sport.  :)

The present sprocket and chain are from Chaparral. JT sprockets Front for $13.99 vs another I looked at was Sunstar for $22.99 when I replaced the chain the last time (both sprockets case hardened chromoly steel & JT specifies SCM420 Chormoly). No shipping as order qualified for Free shipping.  :)

By the way. I used a Bikemaster Chain (I think it was 520 BMXR Series -Rround Rivet Head Chaparral P/N  319-4863) - $67 or somehting.

Anybody have an opinion on Front Sproket selections.

NOTE: I ran the (OEM) Chain and Sprockets 34000 miles (cahin was very stiff - probably over ran it, but the OEM Sprocket does not look bad). 

Replaced with cahin and sporckets from Mtn Mtr Sports (do not rememebr which brands). But, that cahin was acting stiff at 15000 miles and the sprocket looed worse that the OEM.

The last replacement (about 5000 miles ago) was as stated above (Bikemaster Chain and JT Sprocket). Chain is god and you can see sprocket in the picture (shows wear).   

 
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 12:02:37 pm »
More thoughts and investigation.

Talked to Curt (good source of knowledge me thinks). He made a few comments. Never had a situation with replacing the washer except for some folks did not realize they had to turn it to get it off and tried prying it off (so, bent it and had to replace it). In other words, he wondered why mine wore out, except for fact I have 54K on the NINJA 500 which he figured is unusual for that bike. He gave JT Sprockets a good recommendation as said he has used them or Sunstar a lot. (Get What You Pay For was my question as I had begun to wonder if I was making a mistake buying the JTs - they are like $14 at Chaparral and $18 at Mtn Mtr Sports as compared to other sprockets in the $28 range and OEM at $46 range). BY THE WAY - I do not adhere to the Get What You Pay For idea, It AIN"T Always True.  :(  

Anyway, I ordered a new Sprocket (JT like he one in picture) to see how it fits compared to the old one. The rotational play in the old one is not as bad as I made it seem. Plus, as Curt said, they could not fit perfectly matched as you would end up having trouble getting it on or off.  

One other concern - The after market JT Sprocket is of course not made like the old one which can only go on the shaft one way (you can tell by the cutouts on it). Anyway, I experimented with the JT (have the one on there now with 6K Miles and another with 15K miles. I turned them around and they feel more snug on the shaft. I left one on there (flipped) and putt he old washer in (barely holds) and then rotated the rear wheel - looks like chain comes on OK, but there is a shift of the sprocket as it makes a round. I then ran the engine in garage on center stand and rev'ed it up a couple times, no tendency for the sprocket to come off.

About decided to try it that way (reversed) either with the old or a new sprocket (see how they fit).

Picture shows the JT Sprocket as I have been installing it the last two times. I just flipped it over as an experiment.  

NOTE: The extra thickness on sprocket is on the outside (It is flat on the other side, so reversing it sets the sprocket oot more, about 3/32). Chain seems to come on OK.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 12:10:12 pm by PAULRIDES »
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 02:00:24 pm »
I would just get a bigger hammer.

 :happyrider
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2015, 02:17:20 pm »
Next step. Sledge Hammer Demolition -- $0.50 a blow for Charitty to Paul Medley's Home for   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Paul Medley. Gonna build me a New House.

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 04:33:11 pm by PAULRIDES »
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Offline gl1dinorider

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2015, 03:54:37 pm »
I would just get a bigger hammer.

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Offline Chris

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2015, 04:55:50 pm »
I would just get a bigger hammer.

 :happyrider

And if you can't fix it with a hammer you obviously have an electrical problem.    :21
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Offline El Borrego

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2015, 08:05:50 pm »
I think I'd go with one of your original suggestions, weld the sprocket to the shaft and when it wears out, trade it in on something else.  Who knows.  You might start a whole new procedure of longevity in motorcycle parts.  I know, SA answer.

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2015, 09:50:22 am »
I think I'd go with one of your original suggestions, weld the sprocket to the shaft and when it wears out, trade it in on something else.  Who knows.  You might start a whole new procedure of longevity in motorcycle parts.  I know, SA answer.

FOG on NINJA Site wrote back - can't weld as it is hard Carbon Steel. I don't know  ??? , but it was kind of a last resort (in other words a dumb idea).

I thin it will be OK once I make decision on which way to go and which way to turn the sprocket.

Could use a glass window in that cover so could keep an eye on the sprocket. Maybe just cut a center hole in it about an inch in diameter.  ::)
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2015, 10:07:43 am »
FOG on NINJA Site wrote back - can't weld as it is hard Carbon Steel. I don't know  ??? , but it was kind of a last resort (in other words a dumb idea).

I thin it will be OK once I make decision on which way to go and which way to turn the sprocket.

Could use a glass window in that cover so could keep an eye on the sprocket. Maybe just cut a center hole in it about an inch in diameter.  ::)

Yeah, yeah, a glass window. That's the ticket.

 :21
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2015, 03:08:50 pm »
UPDATE Feb 21:
Anyone have a brilliant Idea, let me know.  O)

I have a solution I am going to go with unless there is a brilliant idea.  >:D

Conclusion: I am not crazy about the design (maybe, tolerances of sprocket threaded screw holes, holes in lock plate for the screws, and also a sloppy fit of Lock Plate screw holes to the screws).  Whatever the cause (design or tolerances), the teeth on the Lock Plate do not line up exactly behind the end splines on the shaft (I mean none of them do). The lock plate needs to turn about another 1/2 a spline, so either move the teeth on the Lock Plate or the holes in the sprocket to let it turn more CCW. At best, some teeth on the Lock Plate are behind about 1/2 a spline). To top that off, the play in the screw holes on the lock plate allow it to shift around some (so that one side or the other is almost not behind a spline at all). See Pictures below.  

Solution: The new sprocket is tighter (no or very little rotational motion) on the shaft and I plan to use it. I guess the splines in the old sprockets are worn (I am sure it is a softer metal than the shaft splines, but those also look worn to me). However, I have decided to flip it (flip the sprocket) so the chain will be pulling the sprocket inward vs outward. The sprocket teeth are set 0.10 +/-  further out from the transmission when flipped (measurements below). The chain appears to go on the sprocket evenly when flipped. SO, I AM GOING TO TRY IT and check it after a few miles. Not that I know it pulls it outward when installed normally, but I think it does as it tried to come off on the ride the other day. Flipped, it seems to stay on.  

Check: I could not start NINJA (battery is down and just put it on charge) to run the thing on kickstand to check it. But, I did with the old Lock Plate and Sprocket (flipped) a couple days ago and it appeared to work fine.  

Investigation I did (pictures):

First thing I did was to determine how much difference there is in distance of teeth on sprockets from the transmission when you run normal or flipped sprocket.  I had the Old OEM Sprocket to make measurements as to where the sprocket teeth set normally (distance from transmission) and used micrometer as in first picture (below) to make the measurements.

What I found was:
OEM Sprocket installed as it came from factory is 0.10 inch +/- closer to the transmission when installed normally vs being flipped.  

The JT Sprocket is made different, but I found the same 0.10 +/- closer to the transmission when mounted as I have been using the JT Sprockets (what would look like the way to mount it with the extra flange facing out - the flange measured 0.11 +/- which would agree).  

I also noted the same measurements from transmission to teeth for either sprocket within 0.01 +/-. So, from that I would say I have used the JT Sprocket in correct position in past (flange out and teeth closer to transmission - same distance as OEM was).  

Pictures:
Picture one is not making a measurement as could not measure and hold light and camera. It just shows the little flange on Transmission that I measured from and shows where the micrometer met the teeth of the sprocket.

The following pictures show misalignment of Lock Plate Teeth and Splines with various configurations as I tried to move the Lock Plate around the tolerances of the screw holes in it. My opinion is that it is  a very poor design or just a tolerance problem.

First One (Old OEM Sprocket installed for a check of alingnment of Lock Plate and Splines) shows the teeth on the Lock Plate only cover about 1/2 (2/3) the width of the spline at end of the shaft.

Then with new sprocket shows what happens when you center Lock Plate as best you can - the teeth do not fall all the way behind a spline (about 1/2 or 2/3 behind).

Then moved the Lock Plate to ond side. The teeth on Lock Plate at left bottom are barely behind a spline.

Then moved Lock Plate up and now teeth at top are barely behind a spline.

Then I turned the sprocket over here (flipped it). Then set the Lock Plate more centered. Teeth still do not line up behind a spline and only top edge of the teeth are behind a spline. No wonder the darn thing wears out.  

Last one is a close up of misfit Lock Plate.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 03:52:45 pm by PAULRIDES »
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2015, 10:30:33 am »
Resolved, Satisfied, Keep an Eye on It.  ::) :happyrider

I compressed the Lock Plate narrow side with a vice grips (kind of squeezed it together) before final installation of sprocket (flipped position). Almost compressed Lock Plate too much as I had to tap it on shaft with hammer (light tap). Then rotated it to align the shoes with the sprocket thread holes. I think more teeth are making more contact behind the edge splines. I also think the reversed (flipped) sprocket is allowing the chain to pull the sprocket IN vs Out. Basically, the sprocket chain teeth are outward on the sahft 0.10 inch (measured) more than an OEM Sprocket or the JT Sprocket in normal position. The chain seems to come on the sprocket with no problem. Will watch wear on the sprocket for a 1000 or so miles. 

Short Test Ride Sunday:
I ran 8000 rpm a couple times on Boyds Creek in 3rd gear so as not to go to fast. I think that was near 80 mph, sprocket would be going faster at higher MPH - but I don't do that very often. (only when goofing off  :happypep)
 
I left cover off so I could watch it and it seems to be doing good (does not appear to be pulling to outside of the shaft). I can't watch it while riding of course, but I looked when I stopped. I also ran it on the center kickstand when rev'eds o I could watch it. 
 
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 01:44:41 pm »
Congratulations.

 :21
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Offline Luvmystar

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2015, 08:20:12 pm »
 :21
Marc

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Offline skeeter

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2015, 11:19:20 pm »
had that same deal on a yamaha & thought,"what was wrong with a snap ring ?'
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2015, 11:32:58 pm »
why is there slop in the gear /spline match up? aka lost motion.in a car , that would be the same  as crank to fly wheel. & that means solid fit & alot of muscle.must be a reason & i guess it works? but it just  looks like something to wear out.
   
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2015, 09:08:44 am »
why is there slop in the gear /spline match up? aka lost motion.in a car , that would be the same  as crank to fly wheel. & that means solid fit & alot of muscle.must be a reason & i guess it works? but it just  looks like something to wear out.
   

The New Sprocket does fit a bit tighter on the shaft splines (very little if any rotational motion).

I feel the splines on shaft look like they have some wear as more narrow at the top edge, but obviously the old sprockets had some wear on the spline connection (OEM had 34K  miles, the second one had 15K miles, and the third one had about 5K miles). I felt like all of those had about the same slop (rotationally). 

Surely, the sprockets are a softer metal than the shaft and I would expect some wear. I don't know about all that, but if the method to retain the sprocket on the shaft was better or at least the Lock Washer designed to fit behind the edge splines better, things would be less of a problem.

We shall see how my fix does (flipped the new sprocket over and compressed the washer a little bit with vice grips)? 
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2015, 05:45:06 pm »
Talked to Curt when I took NINJA over for him to look at the wobble and wear (front sprocket and shaft problem). This was about 3000 miles after putting the new sprocket and Retaining Washer on. 

I was thinking a C Clip. Curt said what you need is a Spring Clip and should be able get one at Lowe's.

SO ----
I decided to see if I could find a Spring Clip to fit in the grove on the shaft in front of the Retaining Washer.

I took some micrometer measurements (best I could considering angle and interference problems). 
Found a 7/8 size Spring Clip that was very close to my measurements for width of material and diameter.

Installed with out too much trouble. The tool I have for such has limited spread, I guess for smaller clips.
 
Anyway, I got it on the shaft using the tool and a screwdriver and into the grove in front of the Retaining Washer. That took up some space and made the sprocket more solid. Getting it off may be another problem.

What you think? Will this work or will the Spring Clip wear the spline gear more? (Assume harder than the Retaining Washer which was against the end splines). PS: I am talking the spline at end which if that wears down would need a whole new shaft (still plenty left I guess). Hoping if the wobble says restrained, not be wearing on the splines of the Spring Clip.   
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 05:49:46 pm by PAULRIDES »
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2015, 09:51:13 pm »
i noticed that set up on my little 250 virago , alot of play/slop . found out that's  on alot of jap bikes . same gears fit alot of them . i don't like that set up , but it seems to work. they come that way.loose? you can find gears with neoprem in them . but i don't think it matters. i was sure it would wear out the output . but it didn't . 
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2015, 07:34:35 am »
i noticed that set up on my little 250 virago , alot of play/slop . found out that's  on alot of jap bikes . same gears fit alot of them . i don't like that set up , but it seems to work. they come that way.loose? you can find gears with neoprem in them . but i don't think it matters. i was sure it would wear out the output . but it didn't .

Encouraging That the Output did not wear out.  :)

I kind of figured it would last as there is still a lot of material on the end splines (that hold every thing on) in front of the Spring Clip.

It is just the DANG Retaining Washer keeps wearing and makes you worry about the sprocket starting to come off (As I had on the ride with Jackie in Townsend).

Seems a good deal less WOBBLE on the sprocket now with spring clip and hopefully it will not wear thru seeing there is less wobble. (not many miles on the Spring Clip yet, so see what it looks like in a 1000 or 2000 miles).  ???

 

 
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline Chris

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Re: Not Sure Where I Stand - Wear on Sprocket, Spline, Retaining Washer
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2015, 10:37:55 am »

Seems a good deal less WOBBLE on the sprocket now with spring clip and hopefully it will not wear thru seeing there is less wobble. (not many miles on the Spring Clip yet, so see what it looks like in a 1000 or 2000 miles).  ???



I would think the retaining washer is pretty redundant with the spring clip in place.  It should keep the sprocket on just fine.  If they both fit then I suppose you have a pretty good "belt and braces" fix going. 
CHRIS
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