Author Topic: Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident  (Read 347 times)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident
« on: November 04, 2017, 04:47:30 pm »
There has been some discussion in the past regarding need for a "backup" membership or insurance to help with legal issue that would or might result in a self defense shooting.

I hope I am not out of line to bring it up again. I have been thinking about it (Mainly due to inputs from USCCA thru their E Mail solicitations which I started). A nuisance at times, but do give a lot of information (education and training -- FREE EMails and links).

That said, I have done some recent research (still have not decided to go forward on joining or paying a fee).

MY MAIN CONCERNS and Questions:

Reallize there is not a big chance ever need, but I would like to be able to afford the cost of a defense and to have someone to contact immediately after an incident if involved in one. 

Wondering if anyone has such membership or insurance and have heard of any incidences? Also, any Lawyers here that would make an educated comment?


Share some of the information here that I recently obtained.
 
I have been thinking about this situation for some time (mainly as a result of having contacted USCCA).
Their web site and information is. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/
One link shows cost and sometimes offer bonus (over valued bonus).  https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/membership/?id=3steps&sid=Homepage&kmi=
You can search around and see some videos they present as situations that have happened (True or False)
 
I have seen a number of providers. So, here are some sources of info on this topic, it is a lot to filter thru.
https://www.usacarry.com/about-usa-carry.html
 
https://www.nracarryguard.com/training/rights-responsibilities/
 
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
 
https://d3rmvquxnxa9wt.cloudfront.net/pdf/guides/USCCA_CarryGuard_ComparisonChart.pdf
 
I presently think this might be the best of them all considering their detailed web site presentation and the yearly cost. That said, I have not a clue as to their performance in an event or if they ever have had a situation.
 
https://ccwsafe.com/   Backed by this Insurance Company. https://www.2ainsurance.com/
 
 
 
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2017, 08:10:05 pm »
From TN Gun Owners FORUM, does not discuss need for insurance or membership but does tell you when you can self defend and what to do if you do.

https://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/10119-legal-perspectives-on-the-use-of-deadly-force/
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Offline Chris

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Re: Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 04:54:54 pm »
Lots of good info there Paul...thanks.

The disconnect I see with many of these sites and their plans/offerings/memberships is that what they are providing is termed "insurance" and it really isn't.  Insurance is something you buy that mitigates the results of a bad thing happening.  Life insurance provides cash to your survivors to replace your lost income.  Car or bike insurance provides for the repair or replacement of your vehicle if it's damaged or stolen.  Malpractice insurance replaces the money lost in a lawsuit over your professional services.  The service provided by these plans doesn't do any of that.  If you shoot and are convicted of a crime you're going to prison and will be liable for any damages or fines ..."insurance" or not.  What these are in reality are retainers for legal services to hopefully keep you from being convicted.  So I think the right way to look at these offerings is whether they make sense from a getting legal help point of view.  In that light you might want to consider the cost of having a local lawyer on retainer versus one of these plans since with a local lawyer he would be on call for any legal need you might have rather just in the remote possibility of a shooting incident. 

Another factor to consider is that if you are involved in shooting incident you will need a lawyer for certain since even the most justifiable shooting incident will be investigated and questioned minutely.  So if I carried a gun I would plan for that.

In some ways the most informative and helpful advice was the link you provided from Memphis lawyer Patrick Stegall on the Tennessee Gun Owners site which offered an analysis of the Tennessee deadly force law.   I think more people need to read it if only to realize just how limited the circumstances are where you can legally draw your weapon.  Here's a quote:

The use of deadly force

Here is the Tennessee law on using deadly force in self-defense. The full statute can be found in the Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 39-11-611. The critical elements of this law are that:

  -  You may use deadly force only if you have a reasonable belief of an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury

  -  If you do not have all of these elements, do not even show your weapon—you will likely be facing a criminal charge

  -  You get the protection of this law only if you are not engaged in unlawful activity and you’re in a place where you have a right to
     be[1]

  -  You CANNOT use deadly force to protect property because there is no danger of death or serious bodily injury: the threat has to
      be against a person, not a thing

  -  The threat has to be imminent: it has to be about to happen now

  -  You do not have a duty to retreat before using deadly force if you hold a reasonable belief of an imminent danger of death or
      serious bodily injury, and you do not have to give any kind of warning, verbal or otherwise

  -  The no duty to retreat concept applies in and around your home, as well as out in public

What to do afterward

If you are in a self-defensive shooting, the moments following it are going to be extremely emotional. Your body will probably be raging with adrenaline and your heart beating faster than you’ve ever felt. You will have just had a deadly threat on your life or the life of someone close to you. Perhaps you have killed a person. Soon, the police are going to be on the scene and they’re going to want to know what happened. What do you do? You may want to consider the following:

     First and foremost, you probably should not make any kind of statement to the police without consulting with an attorney. You likely will not be in any shape emotionally or psychologically to be giving an account of what happened. Your memory may not be accurate, and you could easily get too excited and say the wrong thing. Legally, there is too much on the line for you to do this. Remember that anything you say can and will be used against you.

    If you decide to talk to the police right way, it’s probably best to convey to them that you were justified in what you did. Make it short and concise. “I thought he was going to kill me,” or “I was in fear for my life” are good statements. This could go a long way in establishing that you had a reasonable belief of an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.
   
     Tell the police that you intend to cooperate, but that you must speak with your attorney before making any more statements. Simply tell them, “I want to talk to my lawyer now.” When you invoke your right to counsel, the questioning must cease. If it does not then anything gotten beyond that is inadmissible.
   
     It may be a good idea to ask to be taken to the hospital. Why do this? First, you may very well need to be checked out by a doctor. Your heart is going to be running like a freight train. Second, if you were not under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time of the shooting then a medical report will show that. This could be critical evidence for possible future legal proceedings, criminal or civil. Third, being in the care of a physician will keep you out of jail or an interrogation room at the police station, and will give your family and/or attorney time to get to you.

     You need to be planning for what to do after a shooting now, not when it happens. When it happens you won’t have time to plan, and furthermore you’re not going to be in the right frame of mind to even try. Take the time now to think about these kinds of situations, and discuss them with someone you trust.

Patrick Stegall



CHRIS
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Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 09:27:45 am »
Some good thoughts in your response, not saying a I agree with all of it.

Chris- The disconnect I see with many of these sites and their plans/offerings/memberships is that what they are providing is termed "insurance" and it really isn't.  Insurance is something you buy that mitigates the results of a bad thing happening.

Paul - They do use the word insurance and some also use membership (one says it is not insurance). Personally, I don't see any problem or difference with calling it insurance -- like any other insurance, it provides $$$$ to cover expenses (legal expenses and loss of work expenses) that you will incur if involved in a court case (criminal or civil) resulting from a gun incident (self defense to other examples - you would not dream of happening). The USCCA (they refer to membership and provide legal defense money, "insurance" as I see it.

The USSCA advertise with three examples -- one involve a shooting in a barber shop robbery by a patron at the shop, two of did not involve any shooting, just a charge by another citizen that you had a gun and showed it. One of those was harassment by a following vehicle in traffic, and the other was harassment by a daughter's boyfriend and his family). Interesting cases. 

The Need? https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/offers/58efa246c9781/you-were-just-forced-to-shoot-someone-in-self-defense?tID=5925b6c11c78c   

Three Stories and the chocies of "membership" they provide sets the amount of "insurance" you get to cover expenses. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/offers/59ef7eb9dd703/join-the-uscca-today?tID=

Right Now - My Pick (mostly cause of cost and the info on their web site seems well presented is this one.
https://ccwsafe.com/
Their FAQ gives a lot of information.
https://ccwsafe.com/faq
Some of their funding is backed by an insurance company. https://www.2ainsurance.com/

NOTE: CCWSAFE does not call their service 'insurance". I don't know why not? It provides funds $$$ for defense, so what is the difference what it is called?

Chris - Life insurance provides cash to your survivors to replace your lost income.  Car or bike insurance provides for the repair or replacement of your vehicle if it's damaged or stolen.  Malpractice insurance replaces the money lost in a lawsuit over your professional services.  The service provided by these plans doesn't do any of that. 

Paul - Seems to me they do that "pay expenses for legal defense".

Chris -- If you shoot and are convicted of a crime you're going to prison and will be liable for any damages or fines ..."insurance" or not.

Paul -- Can't imagine any "membership or insurance"  backed by an insurance company would provide insurance for criminal acts fines or incarceration after conviction of an illegal act. The "insurance" or "membership" offered by these is to help or cover (depending on how much coverage you have and need) would cover that. 

Chris - What these are in reality are retainers for legal services to hopefully keep you from being convicted.  So I think the right way to look at these offerings is whether they make sense from a getting legal help point of view.

Paul - Agree. Likelihood of ever being involved in an incident is very low -- weigh that against insurance. 
Likelihood of having a house fire, storm damage is low also --- but we buy insurance.   

CHRIS - In that light you might want to consider the cost of having a local lawyer on retainer versus one of these plans since with a local lawyer he would be on call for any legal need you might have rather just in the remote possibility of a shooting incident.

Paul -- Sounds good, but in my opinion might be hard to find a local qualified lawyer and the expense of a defense for a gun incident would be way more than most of us could afford. Hopefully and supposedly, the problem of finding a qualified lawyer and having instantaneous (24 hr a day) support for such a defense would be helped by the "membership or insurance" thing provides a list of qualified lawyers to advise and defend you and to cover expense. WILL they or NOT? THAT IS A BIG QUESTION in my mind   

Chris -- Another factor to consider is that if you are involved in shooting incident you will need a lawyer for certain since even the most justifiable shooting incident will be investigated and questioned minutely.  So if I carried a gun I would plan for that.

Paul -- I don't know if it is another factor -- as that is pretty much what the whole 'membership - insurance' is about. They all say, you are gonna need it. Might not if it is a Clear Cut Case of Self Defense for Your Perceived Fear (as the DA sees it - some are aggressive gun haters  :groan). 

Chris --In some ways the most informative and helpful advice was the link you provided from Memphis lawyer Patrick Stegall on the Tennessee Gun Owners site which offered an analysis of the Tennessee deadly force law.   I think more people need to read it if only to realize just how limited the circumstances are where you can legally draw your weapon.  Here's a quote:

Paul -- Agree - something most folks "Redneck - Clint Eastwood Make My Day TYPES" don't give a thought. Good you copied and pasted that. By The Way --- that topic was closed on TN Gun Owners with only the lawyers statement available (no other replies). 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:33:45 am by PAULRIDES »
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 09:38:57 am »
I am going to reply with this again (was in last reply, but hidden with all the other stuff). I think this summarizes a lot of the discussion. Some good Information and (it is an advertisement - but that is what it is about, buy or don't buy).

The USSCA advertise with three examples -- one involve a shooting in a barber shop robbery by a patron at the shop, two of did not involve any shooting, just a charge by another citizen that you had a gun and showed it. One of those was harassment by a following vehicle in traffic, and the other was harassment by a daughter's boyfriend and his family). Interesting cases. 

The Need per USCCA? https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/offers/58efa246c9781/you-were-just-forced-to-shoot-someone-in-self-defense?tID=5925b6c11c78c   

Three Stories and the chocies of "membership" they provide sets the amount of "insurance" you get to cover expenses thru USCCA . https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/offers/59ef7eb9dd703/join-the-uscca-today?tID=

Right Now - My Pick (mostly cause of cost and the info on their web site seems well presented is this one.
https://ccwsafe.com/
Their FAQ gives a lot of information.
https://ccwsafe.com/faq
Some of their funding is backed by an insurance company. https://www.2ainsurance.com/

NOTE: CCWSAFE does not call their service 'insurance". I don't know why not? It provides funds $$ for defense, so what is the difference what it is called?
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)

Offline PAULRIDES

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Re: Guns & Self Defense & Need for Support after an Incident
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 12:01:00 am »
More Information from TN Gun Owners Posts (I copied a couple comments).

Finding a lawyer in advance:

I have asked 2 diff lawyers to be on retainer and both have told me the same thing. "Here is my card, call me if you need me", One of the lawyers asked me this. "Why do you need this unless you are looking for trouble. "

CCW Safe comments -- I took part out of comment and added the underlined part

A recent podcast of Andrew Branca's, an attorneys attorney on defense topics and aurthor of book (The Law of Self Defense) mentioned several of the products.  In brief, CCW Safe, Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, and USCCA were spoken of favorably.  The NRA CarryGuard, not so much as it is a reimbursement program.  Trial lawyers require their money up front.  Without adequate up-front funding one's defense may suffer significantly.
Ride Country Roads - a lot. :-)